Thread: My raw feeding experiment

Originally Posted by candes

Septicemic Salmonellosis in Two Cats Fed a Raw-Meat Diet -- Stiver et al. 39 (6): 538 -- Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association

But Candes, you know this article cannot be true, as I have read on every single raw food website that it is a fact that cats can perfectly safely consume bacteria on food. These researchers must have been paid off by the evil commercial pet food companies to lie!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Thanks for uncovering some factual info. That cats can get salmonellosis was certainly already well established. The fantasy that it could never come from raw food will live on though, I suspect.

Originally Posted by NCarver

one thing the study showed is [...] that people using raw diets must work hard to try to ensure complete nutrition.

That is exactly what most of us do when preparing raw meals. So the researchers just confirmed what we already know.

Originally Posted by NCarver

The subjective health evaluations suggested that the raw fed cats might be a bit healthier, while in reality their hearts were being destroyed and they were slowly dying.

Only these were not ‘raw fed cats’. They were inadequately raw fed cats.

The link you provided I had already seen. Unfortunately it is not the report itself. Whatever happened to it? I can’t find it reviewed, cited or commented on… it’s like it has vanished into thin air.
All I could find was who sponsored Dr. Hamper’s fellowship.
Hill's Pet Nutrition sponsors nutrition fellow Dr. Beth Hamper
Sorry, I too often can't resist.


Still, she doesn’t seem to be rabidly anti-raw.
Alternative Diets Still Riding High
In here she ‘…notes that raw diets may have significant nutritional imbalances [but she would know all about that wouldn’t she?] and that the ingestion of raw bones may cause gastrointestinal perforation. On the upside, however, she says the protein in raw diets may have increased digestibility and bioavailability.
“Although infectious disease is possible, they also occur with commercially heat-processed diets,” she says. “In all of these alternative diets, they may also provide additional phytochemicals—flavonoids, polyphenols—and other nutrients that have yet to be recognized by nutritional science.”’

So, in spite of the Hill’s connection it wouldn't be fair to dismiss her as a mouthpiece for the industry.

Anyway, I am terribly frustrated by the apparent non-existence of good, reliable comparative studies.
Here’s a guy who has the same gripe but says it a lot better than me.
- Terrierman's Daily Dose -

I quote: “Silence can also tell a story. But to hear silence, you must clear your mind and really listen.”
.

Originally Posted by Walter Coonkat

And the latest story on germs and pets which I just saw today: HealthDay Articles titled 'Pets May Pass Illnesses to Owners: Sleeping with or being licked by dogs or cats can be conduit for disease, experts warn'. Good grief.

What is it with this silly risk aversion nowadays? Reminds me of the 70s when people en masse dumped their cats because of a toxoplasmosis scare story in the media. Turned out the authors forgot to say most Dutch women have acquired immunity to that bug, and simple precautions are sufficient to minimise any risk.

Originally Posted by candes

Septicemic Salmonellosis in Two Cats Fed a Raw-Meat Diet -- Stiver et al. 39 (6): 538 -- Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association

I had seen that one too. It confirms what all the research says: cats are usually not at risk from salmonellosis, but it can occasionally kill them. Especially if they’re very young, very old or already sick. Unfortunately the abstract doesn’t say in what condition those two poor kitties were beforehand.

From the Salmonella Copenhagen article:
“Unconsumed raw meat should be not be left in bowls because of the potential for growth of enteropathogens at room temperature and for inadvertent contact by members of the household, especially children. Bowls should be disinfected shortly after feeding, and should be scrubbed to remove any food residue prior to disinfection.”

The same goes for canned foods and the bowls that have contained them. Once you’ve opened the can all kinds of bacteria start to have a ball in the bowl.

From your WVC quote:
“Numerous published studies document potential complications of homemade cooked or raw foods as well as commercially prepared foods. Owners should be informed of the potential for pathogen contamination and the risks to both pets and humans if raw diets are recommended.”

I think everyone in their right mind is well aware of the hazards of raw meat. But not of canned and dry foods... I imagine those risks are often underestimated. Perhaps cans and bags should carry warning labels.

Originally Posted by elismom

I agree with you there regarding that "news" story. I've had cats my whole life that sleep with me. My kitten sleeps with me at night, rubs my whole face with his nose until I get up in the morning and had a raging bacterial infection for months that is potentially zoonotic and I am well. I may be a bit if a germophobe but I have also eaten a sandwich at the same time as mucking my horse's stall. Reasonable cleanliness and healthy living go a long way in preventing illness. That much said I'm pretty sure my kitten would have died from the clostridium difficile infection had it gone on undiagnosed much longer. He had severe diarrhea and was going 5-6 times a day. After all the reading I've done from the much appreciated research you all have done I know I won't risk trying a raw food diet...My background is Economics/Poli Sci so I don't have education to draw on when making a determination about something like this and heaven knows you don't know what you can believe on the Interwebs!! Thanks again all!

I too had a horsey when I was a teenager, his name was Patrick. And I grew up with cats who were never dewormed, deflea-ed, or vaccinated. It just wasn’t done in those days. There was no antibacterial soap, and when you hurt yourself and broke your skin your Mom kissed you on that spot and that was it. It was a time when parents said: a little bit of dirt won’t hurt.

Due to an ‘underlying condition’ I belong to an at-risk group for severe intestinal misery. But it is not going to stop me allowing little Minnie to lick my face, snuggling up to sweet Tatja under the duvet or kissing El Monto on his cute little pug nose. As candes has said: at least I’ll die happy.

And it is not going to stop me feeding them the food on which I have seen them thrive more than ever.

I am probably being very unwise. But I’m doing what suits me best. And likewise I think everyone should do what suits them best.

@ Candes - Please don’t get me wrong. I really appreciate you taking the time to type all this up. But you are not telling me anything I hadn’t already thought of myself.

The point I am trying to make is this. As long as there are no sound epidemiological studies done on the effects of diet, raw vs commercial, everything will remain pure conjecture. Subjective and anecdotal evidence, as we have already discussed on here.

‘Common sense’ is a subjective concept. The pro-raw people also think it’s common sense what they are doing. There is obviously a standoff and I would love to see it cleared up. That is why I keep banging on about studies and how it is such a shame there aren’t any. They would be of more use than a spate of articles that are beside the point because they do not touch on the question: ‘what can be said about the morbidity and mortality in raw fed cats vs commercially fed cats?’

That’s all there is to it. Not more, not less. I am not trying to convince anyone into anything. I am surprised you still think that, because I have made that sufficiently clear more than once.

Since the issue of inbreeding and health issues in MCs was raised, it reminded me that one of our breeders recently told me that she is getting an Oriental Shorthair kitten because judges must have experience with opposite coat length, etc. Anyway, here is what she said about their health: "their systems are so different from our sturdy MCs. They have difficulties getting young kittens to eat, to wean, etc...and then most have reactions to their vaccines. His last vaccine, given before Jan 1, and the litter was still struggling a week later."

If people are truly interested in seeing long term research being done on diet questions then they ought to donate to the Winn Feline Foundation, since they are about the only organization funding this kind of research. The only other organizations that might are the commercial pet food companies, but as Antonia makes clear, raw food proponents won't trust any research that they might fund.

I understand that Antonia is not advocating here for people to change their cats to raw diets. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for most raw food proponents, since they speak in terms of commercial pet food killing and sickening pets. Likewise I am not saying that raw diets might not be better--just that at this point there is zero evidence that they are, and a number of unresolved health concerns. Actually, if there was a commercial raw food supplier in the US, whose diets were guaranteed through feedings trials to be nutritionally complete, and who did source control and testing to ensure the food was pathogen free, I would love to give it a try. Perhaps irradiated raw food makes sense? Oops, I found this: http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=13088

Originally Posted by NCarver

Actually, if there was a commercial raw food supplier in the US, whose diets were guaranteed through feedings trials to be nutritionally complete, and who did source control and testing to ensure the food was pathogen free, I would love to give it a try. Perhaps irradiated raw food makes sense? Oops, I found this: VIN News

I have been away for a week and am now catching up on this thread, and it's been very interesting reading. Thank you for your more measured post, NCarver.

However, you seem to be missing the point of the raw diet. By definition, it is not nutritionally complete in the same way as a commercial food diet (dry or tinned) is. In order to be described as 'complete', a commercial pet food must be tested for all the required nutrients in one sample. By contrast, the aim of a raw diet is to achieve a similar balance over 2-3 weeks. To do this, a cat must consume 5% bone and 10% organ meat, the remainder muscle and the rest. It is critical to ensure there is enough taurine in this diet. Whole mice and darker meats have the most taurine. If in doubt, a taurine supplement can be added. Of course, taurine is added to commercial pet food, as there would be precious little left in the meat content of said food after intensive processing.

A commercial raw food supplier would simply not be able to describe any one of their products as 'complete'. The whole point is that you feed as wide a variety of meats as possible, in the right proportions, over several days, in order to achieve balance. Merely feeding ground rabbit does not constitute a 'complete' diet, as I think Antonia mentioned in an earlier post. A raw diet is not easy to get right, and is not as convenient as filling their bowls with kibble.

And I'm not saying that the raw feeders deserve more credit for feeding raw. It's up to the individual. I still feed the evil kibble myself.

Hey there, I've just joined the forum & stumbled on this thread. & there I was thinking I was alone in feeding my kitten raw meat :0) She's my first kitten & I never even knew there was a rumour that MCs might be prone to gum probs. The things you learn on here... I've always fed my dogs raw food & so it was obvious to me to feed the kitten on it too. I've been feeding her whole young rabbits since I got her at 9 weeks old. She had a dose of "the runs" when I got her but I dunno was it the stress of the journey & food change but I had to clean poo off her a couple of times...was not liking that at all! As soon as I fed her rabbit (I mean from the very 1st meal) her poo went hard & virtually odourless.
It was fascinating to watch her 1st reaction to the whole dead rabbit (skin on), she pounced on it, wrestled it & gave it a "kill-bite" to the neck. What a natural! Out of a whole rabbit all she leaves is the head & back skin. She has always had Hills dried food ad lib but she only eats it to tide her over til the next rabbit. She caught her 1st mouse the other day aged only 4 months, I'm so impressed :0) I started giving her chickens minus the breast & legs in the last week & it only a day for her to get used to them, she refused the 1st offering. Here's a video of the 1st time she met my rabbit coloured goat....I wonder if she thought it was some kind of jumbo mutant rabbit :0)
YouTube - ‪Kitten vs goat‬‏
hope it works...