Thread: How to Choose???

If they are a good breeder they would know if a particular kitten has 'show potential' and should be able to advise you accordingly. These are the withholding faults according to the GCCF (in the UK):

Size and Condition - Withhold certificates or first prizes in kitten open classes on any exhibit which, in the opinion of the judge, is not in excellent physical condition or is undersized for its age and breed.

The following list of defects applies to ALL BREEDS.

Withhold certificates or first prizes in kitten open classes for any of the following defects. It is considered that these defects are undesirable in breeding stock and may be detrimental to the individual cats:

Folded Ears - Where the top of the ear is folded forwards instead of being pricked.

Skull - Any depressions or protrusions. (The skull should be gently rounded to a greater or lesser degree according to the breed.)

Entropion - Where the upper, lower or both eyelids turn inwards, allowing the lashes or hair to rub the surface of the eye.

Permanent Squint* - Permanent squint or any abnormality of alignment. Severe Nystagmus – consult the Duty Vet.

Reduced Nostril Aperture - Narrowing of the nostrils vertically, horizontally or both, which may cause breathing difficulties. It is often associated with flattened nasal bones and small nose leather.

Exaggerated Depression of the Nasal Bridge (stop) - The nasal cavity is severely reduced, which may cause breathing difficulties. This is often accompanied by blocked tear ducts. The nose should not be excessively short.

Abnormal Position of Nose Leather - When the upper edge of the nose leather is above the lower edge of the eye.

Noticeably Undershot or Overshot Jaw

Narrow or Twisted Lower Jaw

Abnormal Angulation of Canine Teeth - When the mouth is closed the canine teeth should be nearly vertical, the lower canines fitting closely between the upper ones so that the anterior surface of the left upper canine and the posterior surface of the left lower canine almost touch, and similarly with the right upper and lower canines. The incisor teeth should form a straight line between the canines in both upper and lower jaws. The ideal bite is where the upper and lower incisors meet in alignment.

Deformity of Rib Cage

Fixed Deviation of the Sternum or Xiphisternum - The chest should be rounded or oval symmetrically from spine to breast bone when seen in cross-section. There should be no depressions or protrusions on spine or ribs. The sternum (breast bone) should follow a gentle convex curve with no deviation, depression or protrusion, and with no hook where the sternum ends.

Fixed Deviation (kink) of the Spine or Tail at any point* - Small bony excrescences need not debar the cat from being placed, but should be taken into consideration.

Luxating Patella in Adults - Where the kneecap can slip from the front of the joint towards the side.

Abnormal Number of Toes - Anything other than four toes on each foot and one dew-claw on each foreleg.

Hernia - Consult the Duty Vet.

Monorchid or Cryptorchid Adult Males - Both testicles must be descended and positioned in the scrotum in entire adult males.

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*Squints and kinks have been included in the list because they are faults in all breeds, although they are unlikely to affect the health of the cat or its progeny.

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The above defects are fully described, with illustrations, in the GCCF publication: 'Guide to the Defects Listed in the GCCF Standard of Points'.

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Certificates should only be awarded if the cat is considered to be of sufficiently high quality, not just lacking any withholding faults.


So as you can see - there is a lot to consider and you really do need the advice of an experienced breeder.

Although I see you are in NL, please have a look at this link Welcome to the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy
which gives good, practical advice whichever country you are in. As Candes has already said, please do go and see more than one breeder, if possible. That way you will have something to compare the first breeder to. Good luck and hope this information is a help to you - Wendy

Hi & welcome,it is great that you have posted your worries & queries before commiting because as you can see already there is helpful pointers been given,it is sad when someone posts after money has passed hands & you think oh no,some have happy endings but not all.
I agree with Candes do try & find another breeder or two/three if necessary to get a comfortable feeling about everything & also as stated any good breeder would try & steer you in the right direction if you tell them of your interest in showing.Male or female is an open book,if you don't mind which I would go with the baby that says hey I am yours,there is normally one that does show a bonding towards you as a new parent to them or if you decide on a certain sex,colour & breeder than you might be like me & have to wait a few years for it all to come together & he ended up being the No4 MC we owned. I am not sure how mackerel patterns are accepted within the GCCF now,perhaps Wendy could answer that one, I think they are now recoganised but not sure,I can always remember being at one show & were standing back from our cats pen,a breeder was showing a potential client round the pens so she could see the different colours & when the lady said she loved our boy the breeder told her if you want a chance in the GCCF don't have a silver cat with mackerel pattern, he won't do anything,felt like hitting her...I have digressed haven't I,not all breeders are doing the tests,I still think you want at least the HCM done along with FELV,they could do a swab test on just the kitten you are interested in for the HCM but at this stage I also would have alarm bells ringing a bit,dig deeper,perhaps try & find other people who have had kittens from there,you are going to be paying a lot of money for your new furry babe so want the best,don't forget though that even if your babe has had all the tests in the world it can't guarantee you won't be in for heartbreak at an early age,the best has been done to avoid but...
Happy baby hunting will be great to share your journey with you & when the one is "choosen"pictures please for us to coo over x

Wow, that's a lot of good advice. I think generally it's probably true that I need to go and visit a few more breeders, just to get an idea of what the standard is. I looked around the facilities of the breeder yesterday, where the cats and stud cats were kept and everything seemed very nice and clean. There were separate pens for the boys and girls, and the kittens with their mother were inside with the family. I am not sure how to suss out the socialisation efforts put into the kittens. It seemed like they were fully integrated into the familiy hubub, with washing machines whirring, TV going and general household noise not fazing them too much. They seemed to be played with and a lot of their toys were out. I definitely don't really think it was a kittenmill - the general impression I got of the place was that it was clean and nice. I suppose I am just very insecure about my own inexperience.

We talked about vaccinations and he said they would be receiving a full course bar FelV, as some owners decided not to have that one as it might be distressing for the kittens. Is this accurate? I didn't mention that I might like to show at some point - I realise from reading your replies that I should really have. I am not totally sure about this yet anyway. I have never been to a cat show, but thought it sounded like fun from what I read, and it is something I should look into properly. I have a bit of time to make a final decision now, and I will try and contact more breeders in the meantime.

The boy or girl dilemma really stems from my experience with pet hamsters when I was a child. I had three in successions, two boys and a girl. The boys just always seemed a lot more docile and 'handleable' than the girl, who would get defensive very quickly and bit me on several occasions (something neither of the boys did). Since I am looking for a smoochy cat, I am worried that this might be some gender related trait rather than a personality thing. Is this applicable to cats? Do you find the boys to be more docile and calm and the girls to be more defensive/moody? I realise this is probably a terrible generalisation, but I wonder if there is an emerging trend - maybe stemming from the potential need to defend their litters? Does neutering make a difference to personality? Obviously my hamsters weren't neutered at the time (but never had young either), so it's impossible to know. Wow, I feel like the questions never stop!

Thank you all so much for sharing your MC experience with me - I would really love to learn all I can before committing, so keep the advice coming!

As I have posted in other threads on here I find as they mature boys act more like village idiots & the girls seem to keep busy,always active.I don't know if it does make a lot of difference as to wether one sex will become more of a lap cat than the other,the girl I have just lost in between doing her "housework" & playing she would be up for cuddles,full in your face with head butts & purrs,arms around your neck & one paw would gently tap you on the cheek to get you to blow on it & then back to bear hugs,my other little girl would rather lay beside you than come on your lap,with the boys two lay beside you rather than on you,one is on your lap before you even sit down & will stay there all night being nothing but a purr machine & the fourth boy is a mixture of on your lap or also arms around neck & head butts,he is also very good at whispering sweet nothings into your ear,so in my crowd they all differ no matter what sex they are.
Think it would still be good for you to try & get to see another breeder even if you come back to this one.I was lucky & my friend got into the MC's before me so I had a good mentor,mine come from three different breeders all who have very good reputations & life was made much easier for me.With the FELV some breeders have it done,some don't but you must make sure that both parents were tested for it before the mating.
Hopefully someone might pop on the forum yet from where you live & be able to give you some advice on the breeders in your area even if they use the private messaging that is available on here. Think things are going to get very interesting,boy or girl,what colour,do I want to show,if yes which banner to show under,headache coming on....x

I would be very concerned about spending a lot of money to purchase from a breeder that does no health testing. There are a number of tests that can be done and many MC breeders in the US do carry out such tests regularly. The HCM gene testing is one, but best breeders also have echocardiograms done on their breeding cats. Other genetic tests are for SMA and PKD, and evaluation of hips for hip dysplasia. Here is an example page that one of our breeders has for one of her breeding girls, with pedigree and health info:
Pedigree of RW, SGC Witchcraft Flash Fire of Chemicoons

Here is a link to the program that CFA established for a cheap gene testing panel:
catDNAtest.org: DNA Testing for Cats

Prices in the US for breeders that are conscientious about health testing are probably typically in the $800 to $1200 range, depending on how well known the breeder is and how in-demand their cats are. I would certainly not pay in this range for a cat that had no health testing info, unless there is something really special about its background.

As for showing and sex, what I always hear from breeders that show is that generally the females are at a disadvantage because they end up so much smaller than most males, and so are just inherently less impressive. Obviously if you have a very unusual color, you can easily end up with best of color at shows. We were at a local show last year with no silvers, and we thought that our boy could have easily won something just by showing up. Brown tabbies are generally the most numerous. Of course a large brown tabby MC is also one of the most impressive looking MCs, as they have that feral look.

Doesn't always go that way,my friends girl had no end of wins against the boys for best cat in catagory 2 & she has also won overall best cat in the show more than once,that is under the FB banner.There does have to be a lot more than size !
Do agree about the feral look of browns though,wasn't a colour that done a lot for me but since having one have completely changed my attitude on that,they can look so mean & moody but are all soft inside...

Originally Posted by jckkerrison

Doesn't always go that way,my friends girl had no end of wins against the boys for best cat in catagory 2 & she has also won overall best cat in the show more than once,that is under the FB banner.There does have to be a lot more than size!

Sure, it is not just size, but the point the breeders have made is that if you take two equally good MC specimens and one is a 22 lbs male and the other a 14 lbs female, the male will invariably score better. I just had a quick look at TICA site to see if there is any data to corroborate this belief. On the Best of International page I see three MCs from 2005--2010, two kittens and one adult. All three are males. If we look at the current MC standings, the top three are males. Number four, Chemicoons Firefox, is the daughter of the cat whose link I gave above. She was a very large female kitten, the largest out of 10 kittens in two different litters, and weighing more than the one male from each litter (one of those being our male Zephyr and the other being her brother who is ranked 6th, Chemicoons Wild Fire of Woodpile). While sex isn't given, a little googling seems to indicate that only two of the current top ten MCs are female. So, sure, while sex/size isn't the only issue, the fact that 80% of the top ten are male shows you that breeders are probably not wrong about it being a real factor in MC judging.

Wow, so much to think about! And some really great info coming from everyone. Are MCs at cat shows also judged according to their markings? I have looked at a lot of MC breeder's websites, and while some cats have very regular facial markings in terms of colour and symmetry, others have more unusual features, like a line down the nose, or a blotch on the forehead, or half of the face being a different colour. Would that be a problem when showing, or are other criteria more important? Also, what are the rarer MC colours? Some people mentioned tabby being quite common, what about silver etc.

In terms of the health checks, do you think it would be reasonable of me to ask the breeder to have an echocardiogram (to test for HCM) performed before handing over a deposit? Do all vets do those or do they need to be specialist ones?

Log onto our Tigga Towers lady's personal site Somersisle & you will see there a young girl who has done very well at Tica,done even more over the weekend but not yet posted,you will also see a boy called Dangerous & that will also answer your question about wether they need to have regular face markings,no they don't & he is a great example because he is also what is classed as a high white {more white than colour} & it is only fairly recent that high whites have been recognised under some banners for showing.All colours are now becoming more popular,silvers carry classic tabby or mackerel tabby pattern the same as all the other coloured cats barring solids of course.
You do need a specialist to perform echocardiograms & I am not sure if it is of benefit on a young kitten,NCarver is more up on all of that so no doubt he is the best one to advice but I see no reason why you couldn't ask for the gene swab test if the parents haven't been done,with my elder MC's it wasn't even thought about so just as a matter of interest because they are all neuters I had them done & they all came back negative,if the parents are done & they are both negative no worries,breeder has done their best for them.....
Going back to showing yes there are a lot more impostant factors than colour,if the first breeder can't advice you than try & find someone who can if that is the road you would like to take,my first show boy wasn't bought for that reason at all but when the breeder said he was of show quality & would like him to go out {after all it promotes their breeding as well }we got involved & luv it.Going back a bit here & as a matter of interest only, the boy Kruger under Texas Belle & Dangerous is my breeders new stud boy,11mths old & 10kg of purr machine....
Keep going with the questions,at this rate you could have a whole load of us from all different parts of the globe knocking on your door & coming along to help you choose...x